John Schenker

Interviewed by Eve Klein on 13 December 2000

Eve Klein. John, what were your first recollections of Mosman?

John Schenker. We arrived in Australia on 10th November, 1938 and lived for one week in Kings Cross. For that whole week I went to Primary School in Double Bay, at the end of which, that is the last week of November, early December 1938 we moved to Mosman and bought the shop at 732 Military Road, which is now a fashionable shoe shop.

Eve Klein. Having bought it for what purpose?

John Schenker. It was a milk bar cum mixed business, and certainly, the milk bar part of it was quite profitable because next door was the Rex Theatre.

Eve Klein. It was an existing business, and your parents had experience in this line of business?

John Schenker. None whatsoever.

Eve Klein. So how did that come about?

John Schenker. My parents were befriended by the Goldstein family when we arrived, virtually penniless, and the Goldstein’s in those days, apart from making refrigeration equipment also owned a company called Commonwealth Catering Company, which owned shops all over Sydney and this was one of them. It had become vacant and had no mixed business attached; it was purely a milk bar. My father immediately said: ‘The takings from the milk bar will not be sufficient, I’m going to add mixed business, groceries and stuff’, which he did, almost immediately.

With that transition from Double Bay to Mosman, the day after we arrived in Mosman I went to Mosman Primary School, and I was in class 5B. My class teacher was John Connelly who in turn introduced me to the headmaster, Charles Teasdale.

Eve Klein. Mosman Primary was where it is now?

John Schenker. Yes, that old brick building on the corner of Avenue Road.

Eve Klein. Did it look like that at the time?

John Schenker. Yes, identical.

Eve Klein. What was schooling like for you when you began there?

John Schenker. Wonderful, Connelly and Teasdale took to me like a duck to water, they were so sympathetic with our story – our background. John Connelly offered to teach me English if I taught him German. Charles Teasdale, everyday, enquired as to how I was – if I was doing well, if there was any trouble with the kids at school, and there wasn’t.

Eve Klein. Not at all?

John Schenker. None whatsoever. There was one young fellow whose father owned a fruit shop in Military Road, opposite Mosman School.

I remember him. I think he’d only been in the country a short while before me, but he called me a ‘dirty reffo’, and that, I recall is the only incident that I had during all my years in Mosman.

Eve Klein. From one ‘reffo’ to another?

John Schenker. Oh yes, this was great, him calling me a ‘reffo’, but never, ever had I any problem about, ‘reffo’ Jew – any derogatory comment whatsoever.

Eve Klein. How well did you speak English?

John Schenker. None at all. I sat in school for about two years after we arrived, with a dictionary next to me and I picked up the language from the kids who talked to me during playtime and lunchtime, and all were very friendly people. The other Primary teacher at the time, I remember was Miss Burns, and of all people Douglas Darby who later became famous, or infamous as a liberal politician – a member for Manly. There was no problem at all with school. I walked to the shop at lunchtime, back to school again. I was allowed to have my lunch at home.

As far as our family experiences are concerned, we thought we had arrived in heaven – really, so nice were people to us in the early days, it was unbelievable. This is contrary to some experiences that others had, who had derogatory comments aimed at them; we experienced none of that.

John Schenker. I remember opposite Bed & Bath lived a fellow in a cottage by the name of Adrian Felumb – a Dane who came from Denmark – lived there with his family – that’s his son, his daughter and his son-in-law and daughter-in-law. His son-in-law was Bill Eley, who like Felumb himself was a piano tuner. Adrian Felumb was a sight to be seen. He walked the streets of Mosman with a morning suit, striped trousers, a light jacket, a Homburg hat, spats on his highly polished shoes and a cane. He was absolutely immaculate. They invited us for dinner, for lunch – they bought their goods from us, since my father took on the mixed business part of it. By the way, where Bed & Towel, or whatever it’s called now – that used to be the Mosman Bus Company, a private bus company that operated in the Mosman area.

Eve Klein. Do you remember the name of the company?

John Schenker. Mosman Bus Company.

Eve Klein. It was called that – right.

John Schenker. Felumb and his son-in-law Bill Eley had the shop on the corner of Military Road and The Lane – it’s an ‘M’ numbered Lane opposite the shop that leads to Mosman Oval. On the corner, they had a piano retail business and a tuning business. I spent a great deal of my time in that shop playing a player piano – all day long – they gave me roll after roll, and I just played and played and played all day long.

Eve Klein. What age were you then?

John Schenker. I was nine and a half.

Eve Klein. And you were still in grade 5?

John Schenker. I joined 5B until the end of that year.

Eve Klein. So between that – that same year now, your parents, during this time, were they doing well?

John Schenker. No, because they started from nothing. They owed the money for the shop, which they had borrowed from the Goldstein’s and they repaid it. The work was from seven o’clock in the morning until midnight – one o’clock the following morning, because of the picture show trade. Next to the shop, what is now Country Road, used to be the Rex Cinema, which was owned and run by Mrs. Weedon and her daughter, and her live-in boyfriend Felix Casper who was previously a European skating champion. We got on very well with them and we supplied the picture show crowd there, which was pretty profitable. Having to remain open after the theatre closed at night was because a lot of the deliveries – and I’m talking summer now – came at any time in the night. They were so busy – Peters Ice Cream, the chocolate manufacturers they came at any time of night and you had to be open or you missed the delivery.

Eve Klein. And this was now war time, so were the supplies still available?

John Schenker. ….well, just before the war. Yes, they were still available. The full range of chocolates, Nestles, McRobertson’s chocolates. The full range of cigarettes, Ardath, Craven A – you name them – in tins and in packets, it was in ample supply. All of it, nothing was missing.

Eve Klein. Did that continue, or did that soon change?

John Schenker. No that changed as soon as war was declared in September 1939 – exactly a year after we arrived. Suddenly, my parents, as refugees from Germany, because of their Jewish background – would you believe, were classed as ‘enemy aliens’. My father had his shop closed overnight.

Eve Klein. You mean this particular business was closed overnight?

John Schenker. The initial announcement was that as soon as the government changed the situation it would have to remain closed. Now my father formed a friend at that time. It was Detective Inspector Hargreaves at Mosman Police Station, which is just at the foot of Bradleys Head Road. He was a very, very sympathetic man, and when my father went down there – under the circumstances, he almost broke down. He’d just come from persecution and he regarded this as new persecution. What was going to happen? He had no means of earning a penny. He couldn’t repay his debt. Anyhow, three or four days after the shop was shut Hargreaves came up with the news that he could open up again.

Eve Klein. Was that a special condition?

John Schenker. No, it wasn’t. One of the conditions that was imposed, and not lifted with the re-opening of the shop was the restriction in travel. You were allowed to travel by tram, or bus – one section, and that took us as far as Cremorne Junction. You were not allowed to go beyond Cremorne Junction without obtaining a permit. When my father traveled, which was rare – his English was not the best, he went down to Mosman Police Station and Hargreaves issued a permit.

Eve Klein. The shop was re-opened then after a few days, it was only a matter of days, and who was classified as an enemy alien?

John Schenker. Anybody who was not of British descent – I mean, English migrants – well, they were all right.

Eve Klein. But that would have included the Italian migrants, and the boy you were talking about and so on. Did it affect you at school?

John Schenker. None whatsoever. I must tell you that in my whole school days I have never experienced any form of ridicule, or persecution.

John Schenker. Let me tell you more about the people around us. Next door was Casper’s fruit shop; further down was an old lady milliner, a spinster. All very lovely people who came into the shop and bought, and encouraged us, and who later, when my father was so sick, brought us food, sweets, dinner – whatever.

Eve Klein. Was there any opposition for you in your business?

John Schenker. Yes. Certainly not in the mixed business part, but Mosman in general there was opposition. At Spit Junction you had Moran & Catos who in those days were the grocery shops of the day – they were opposite the Kings Theatre. Across the road from us, opposite the Fire Station was another milk bar. It didn’t do particularly well, it was run by a childless couple. He was a volunteer Fireman at Mosman Fire Station across the road; he spent part of his time there. They were all extremely friendly. I can recall that the other milk bars and places around the top freely helped out when my father ran out of ice-cream cones. John was sent up to the Kings Theatre, or across the road to borrow a carton of ice cream cones to see us through until we got the next delivery. People were very, very nice.

Eve Klein. How much has the area generally changed?

John Schenker. Very, very little. The houses on the opposite side of the street, between that Lane and the next street down have changed, all the houses have gone. They’re all multi-storey units now. I’m talking about the street opposite the Bed & whatever – they’re all home units, until you come to Cottee’s Dental Practice. He was there in 1938 and his successors, also named Cottee are still there.

Eve Klein. What type of clientele did you have?

John Schenker. Mostly of our own background – refugees from Germany. We patronized each other, and also the Australian population around that area. You could almost say that the local area was restricted to Military Road, Muston Street, Almora Street – right down to the school, but there were customers outside this area. For instance, Sir Gustav Nossal and his parents lived in Clifton Gardens. They bought at our shop and I carried heavy nets full of groceries on the tram up to Thompson Street. The reason I was chosen to do this great task was because I paid only a penny on the tram, whereas my parents would have had to pay 2d or 3d, I’m not sure, and we counted the pennies.

Eve Klein. Did you do other deliveries as well?

John Schenker. Yes around the corner.

Eve Klein. How did you organize your time to do that? After school you came back to the shop and did the deliveries. To what extent were deliveries expected?

John Schenker. To a large extent. Not from people across the street, they came and just carried their provisions across the street. But I remember people from Shadforth Street in Mosman, bought from us and they expected them to be delivered.

Eve Klein. How did others manage with deliveries that didn’t have a young boy to do so?

John Schenker. I don’t know. I doubt whether somebody like Moran & Catos who were lower priced grocers – they may have delivered – I don’t know. But the orders would have had to be pretty big.

Eve Klein. Did the order need to be fairly large for you to deliver?

John Schenker. No. We were so grateful; I reckon I would have delivered a pound of butter.

Eve Klein. You say there was no shortage in 1939, of things like cigarettes and so on, when did you first feel the shortage?

John Schenker. As soon as war was declared because the Australian Armed Forces were immediately sent overseas. There was no conscription, but the volunteers – including my father – just surged to the army headquarters and volunteered and to a large extent were sent to the Middle East, including Felumb’s son. Bill Eley was allowed to stay because he was the sole supporter of the family, and Felumb’s son actually fell in North Africa – he was killed.

Eve Klein. Did you notice that there were a lot more women around and very few young men? At school, what changed there?

John Schenker. We furiously dug air-raid trenches including me and my father who went on Saturday mornings to dig trenches and build up sandbags etc. They went from the gate at Military Road, right down to the grayish building, which was the High School at the time. There were two or three rows of those and my father went and helped. Our doctor was Dr Ralph Huntley who lived in a house, which is still there today, Mosman Medical Practice, on the corner – just a few doors down from our shop. He had just returned from overseas and married back here, but he met his future wife here. He went into his father-in-law’s practice and thrived. He was a very, very sympathetic individual. He really took to us and he bought all his rationed cigarette supplies from us. The Armed Forces were issued with ration coupons – they could go into any shop and drop the coupons and in return, they were required to be supplied with….

Eve Klein. ….and what about the supply of cigarettes for civilians?

John Schenker. No, it was finished. You had to battle – oh, you got the occasional carton. In those days, it was very popular to roll your own cigarettes.

Eve Klein. So tobacco was possible to buy?

John Schenker. In very, very limited quantities.

Eve Klein. When did ration books start to appear in your business?

John Schenker. Around 1940/41. We got ration books for clothes, and for butter, and tea, that was all.

Eve Klein. So how did it affect your business with now accepting coupons? How did that work?

John Schenker. It created more bureaucratic paperwork.

Eve Klein. So for every pound of butter you had to collect one or two coupons….

John Schenker. ….and those coupons had to be handed in. Initially, they made it very difficult for us. We had to paste the coupons on to a sheet that was provided, so that there was no cheating. The exact number of coupons per sheet had to be there, before Norco or whoever else it was would sell you a new case of butter.

Eve Klein. Did you find customers trying to wrangle with coupons?

John Schenker. We bartered, we were not very great tea drinkers, and the Australians are, so the odd pound of butter went our way, and our tea coupons went to them.

Eve Klein. So stocks were now somewhat depleted – did people buy less?

John Schenker. No, they bought alternatives – lollies were still available. We did get the odd carton of chocolate. I must tell you about the representative from Cadburys. He was another very good friend of ours who saw that we got the occasional supply of chocolate. He didn’t put it up on the counter because within two minutes it would have been gone – it was rationed out, partially to

John Schenker. and partially to the kids at school, with whom I was very popular.

Eve Klein. We’re now talking about your last year in Primary School – it was 1939/40. That was the 6th grade. What was the expectation for students when they got to 6th class? Where would they usually go then?

John Schenker. To either an Intermediate High School, which I did, or to a full High School, like North Sydney High.

Eve Klein. OK, Intermediate High School was what?

John Schenker. It only had year one, two and three. I went to Mosman Intermediate High. Across the playground – that gray building that’s still there today.

Eve Klein. Did that school only then go to year 3?

John Schenker. Yes, it was the Intermediate Certificate – you could do it there.

Eve Klein. So you finished school in 6th class….

John Schenker. ….no, I finished Primary School….

Eve Klein. ….Primary School in 6th class and went across to the High School now. What differences were there?

John Schenker. The same differences, as kids today experience. From having single class teacher that teach them everything, to subject teachers.

Eve Klein. What about availability of teachers during the war?

John Schenker. There was no shortage.

Eve Klein. But were they different to what you would have had under normal conditions? They weren’t older?

John Schenker. Well, I didn’t notice much change in the teachers at Mosman because they had been there for many years. There was Pop Harris for English, and Marcy Teal for Science and Miss Denham for English, and Madam Mellion for French. She was reputed to be the mother of John Mellion, the actor. Whether she was or not I don’t know. She had that reputation. She was very, very nice, but a very strict woman. She was the only teacher – when she came in, in the morning we had to stand and snap to attention. Bonjour Madam. They were all good teachers. We had Patch Blakney who taught us Latin.

Eve Klein. Are these the nicknames you gave them?

John Schenker. Yes, not me personally. Cibera was a maths teacher – I can’t remember his first name. That’s about it. We didn’t wear a uniform. There was a school blazer and matching shorts, but it was not a requirement. I did have one. I never wore a cap, or a hat. For my Bar Mitzvah I actually got a hat with a school band around it.

Eve Klein. What percentage of children would have worn a uniform?

John Schenker. 50%.

Eve Klein. This was an all boys’ school at the time. Where did the girls go?

John Schenker. I think the Mosman Primary girls went to what looked like a temporary building in Belmont Road, and almost on the corner of Military Road, behind the library.

Eve Klein. Did you wear a uniform in Primary School?

John Schenker. No.

Eve Klein. During this time, your parents had been in business for two or three years. How were things developing for them?

John Schenker. They had repaid all their debt. They worked their guts out. My father died in 1943. I don’t think it was connected to the hard work, he died of a brain tumour, which the doctors at the time said it could happen like that.

Eve Klein. Can you describe the living quarters of your shop, where you lived?

John Schenker. Dreadful, absolutely dreadful. We had living premises behind the shop, which consisted of one big room, partitioned off into a double bedroom and a single couch, a stove, and that was it. We had to eat in the shop itself, which was curtained off, and there was an outside toilet.

Eve Klein. Was it assumed that people would live there? There was no control, or check by the authorities about the condition of the premises?

John Schenker. No. It was livable. We entertained friends. My mother was a very good cook, and we had friends over at the weekend, and reciprocated hospitality.

Eve Klein. Did you close on Sundays?

John Schenker. Yes, there were very, very strict trading hours. On Sunday, you were not allowed to open until 11 o’clock.

Eve Klein. Was that because you were a milk bar?

John Schenker. No, no one was allowed to trade.

Eve Klein. But not all shops were closed on a Sunday, were they? So you were open because…

John Schenker. ….we had the milk bar trade, yes. Let me tell you something interesting. The grocery side that we carried – my father was forced to put up lockable shutters where he was allowed to sell groceries until six o’clock in the evening and then he had to put the shutters up and lock them. He was not allowed to trade after six o’clock at night because that would have provided competition for the other who had closed. That was very strictly policed.

Eve Klein. So you were open six days a week.

John Schenker. No, seven days.

Eve Klein. And the seventh day, from 11 o’clock. And was trade good on a Sunday? Was it worth opening?

John Schenker. Weeeel – we couldn’t sell groceries, you had to rely on the milk bar stuff.

Eve Klein. We were just talking about trading hours during the 1940s, and the fact that a mixed business and a milk bar could open on a Saturday and a Sunday in the afternoon, but not sell groceries. For instance on Saturday night, was there a big trade then?

John Schenker. Tremendous – from the picture show.

Eve Klein. When you say ‘tremendous’, it all would have happened at interval, or after the show?

John Schenker. Yes, entirely. The shop was packed and people spilt on to the footpath. I and another boy carried a tray with chocolates and ice-creams into the theatre. My parents held the shop by themselves, very often with the assistance of one of our friends nearby – they were packed. Our window was dressed by McRobertson’s Chocolates, they made big display cases of chocolates made from plaster. Would you believe the number of times people opened them while the shop was packed and pinched a box of chocolates, which they obviously must have taken into the picture show and got a bit shock when they bit into them.

Eve Klein. You were 13 in 1942, so you’re still a 12-year old. What did you do for entertainment?

John Schenker. I had friends.

Eve Klein. What brought those refugees to Mosman?

John Schenker. Escape from Austria.

Eve Klein. No, I mean rather than another suburb.

John Schenker. The Lewin family, I think upset the Australian Immigration statistics because the family is so large. There must have been 30 members of that family and they liked to live together. They found this house in Ruby Street, in Mosman, up near the Zoo where three families could live in the one house. Don’t imagine that this was a sort of cramped condition that we read about today, this was a huge house, with an upstairs and a downstairs, it was quite easy for three families to live there.

Eve Klein. Would that have been rather remote from the population of refugee and the Jewish community?

John Schenker. No, no, it was very accessible.

Eve Klein. And even though you couldn’t travel and you didn’t have permits unless you asked for them….

John Schenker. ….well I caught the tram up Bradleys Head Road, and got off at Union Street and I was at the Lewin’s where I spent a tremendous amount of time.

Eve Klein. Did you sometimes cross over the bridge and go to the other suburbs?

John Schenker. Very seldom.

Eve Klein. This is still the early 40s….

John Schenker. ….excuse me, by the end of 1941 approximately, the traveling restrictions were lifted, so you could move around. You were still not allowed to own a radio, or a car, except if it was essential for your business.

Eve Klein. Couldn’t you have claimed that to be, if you had been in a position to own a car?

John Schenker. No, my father had no need for a car because the deliveries still happened. If you wanted to buy a clock that was a restricted purchase; you had to get a permit. I got one because I went to school, and I’m a late sleeper and I had to have a clock to wake me up, and the police station gave me a permit to buy a clock.

Eve Klein. The radio – was because….

John Schenker. ….you were not allowed to, in case you sent signals to submarines floating round in the harbour. No binoculars – nothing.

Eve Klein. In case you see what you shouldn’t. What were you hearing about the war at that time?

John Schenker. Everything that every Australian was hearing; I’m sure that the Department of the Army suppressed a lot of the realities of war, but we weren’t restricted, we heard everything. We read our newspapers. No, we were fully aware.

Eve Klein. For a past-time, you would see friends in the area. Did you go to the films?

John Schenker. Yes. I was a constant customer next door at the Rex Theatre where I was allowed in for nothing; guess why I was there so often. I went to the Kinema which is now the club in Military Road, just up from Belmont Road.

Eve Klein. Which is now the Mosman Club.

John Schenker. Yes, that was the Kinema. I was given 3d to get in and 6d to spend, and I could reverse that. I could go in for 6d upstairs and only have 3d to spend. I remember wonderful features, such as Spider Man Returns, The Great Spider where panels and walls opened up and all the baddies came out. The sessions all started with God Save The King, we had to stand up for that, and woe betide if you were too lazy to stand up, somebody pulled you up by the scruff of your neck if you didn’t. And for our 3d or 6d, we got a serial, Movietone news, Cinetone news and two films. I usually went in the afternoons because the picture show next door wasn’t so full. We never went in carrying ice-cream and chocolates at matinee sessions.

Eve Klein. How long did your parents have the shop?

John Schenker. My father died in 1943 and my mother carried it on until 1948. After a while the deliveries of goods across the Harbour Bridge, due to the petrol shortage, was stopped.

Eve Klein. Which year was that?

John Schenker. I’m guessing here – about 1941/42. These infamous gasbags on top of the cars came in. You had to build a frame on top of your car and you had a gasbag on top, which you filled up at the Australian Gas Light Company in North Sydney. The motors had to be converted to take gas. There were two or three people in our vicinity who saw my mother’s plight – she was by herself, and they spent their precious petrol coupons and the fuel in their gasbags to go across the Harbour Bridge and bring home supplies for her. Soft drinks, chocolates – whatever was available.

Eve Klein. What would have been the alternative?

John Schenker. Very dire circumstances. Who could carry heavy stuff like that across the bridge?

Eve Klein. There was nothing across by water?

John Schenker. Even if it was – all right, you’d get it to a ferry wharf, and then what? Those bottles of Starkey’s and Marchant’s drinks – six or eight big bottles to a case, who could carry that?

Eve Klein. So that lasted until the end of the war?

John Schenker. You’ve got me here about actual dates. When the war in Europe was over and the Australian forces went to the Far East, I think things changed a bit then, because that was a turning in the tide of war. I know it was after the 1945 victory in Japan, but petrol, which was still kept on for a while was released from the coupons. I think clothing and food coupons were released earlier.

Eve Klein. In 1945 you’re in your 3rd year of school. So it’s your final year of school.

John Schenker. No, I did my Intermediate in 1943.

Eve Klein. OK. You did your Intermediate, which was the final year for that school and what was the assumption that you would do then?

John Schenker. I was persuaded by my mother to continue to the Leaving Certificate. I would have been quite happy to leave school and start a trade after the 3rd year.

Eve Klein. What percentage of the students would have done that?

John Schenker. In the Mosman area, I would say 20% would have dropped out and the other 80% gone on to some other High School.

Eve Klein. What were the options?

John Schenker. North Sydney High, and North Sydney Tech High with no restrictions: none of this entrance exam, or nothing selective. I personally could have gone to North Sydney High, gotten 4Bs two years later in the Leaving Certificate, one of which would have had to be in Latin, and without blinking an eye I could have entered the medical faculty at Sydney University.

Eve Klein. So you went on to North Sydney Tech, which was situated?

Eve Klein. At the corner of Miller St, and [tape break]. You were just about to say North Sydney Tech High is where you went after Mosman Intermediate High, as it was known. We’re talking about 1944, the year before the war ends. Where was North Sydney Tech College?

John Schenker. At Greenwood Plaza, and I traveled there by tram – caught it in Military Rd, opposite our shop virtually was the tram, and that took me right to the door of the school.

Eve Klein. What did you expect to focus on at that school?

John Schenker. I had a technical education in mind and that’s why I went there. If I had my time over again I wouldn’t have done it.

Eve Klein. Was that the case for most of the students there, that they had a technical education?

John Schenker. That went to North Sydney – yes, because that school offered woodwork, metalwork and technical drawing, none of which were offered at North Sydney High.

Eve Klein. What did you assume you would use that for?

John Schenker. To become an engineer.

Eve Klein. You’re now 15 years of age in 1944? What is life like now for a 15 year old?

John Schenker. My life was different to an Australian child. I was the child of a refugee family and most of my contacts were, whether they lived in Bondi or up the North Shore line, as I said travel was now no problem. We stuck very much together. I had a lot of friends in our community. I did not form many friendships, if any, at Mosman School or later at North Sydney Tech. In fact, I can say that since I went out the school gates, after the Intermediate and Leaving Certificate, I have not contacted, or been contacted by one of my fellow pupils.

Eve Klein. Why was that?

John Schenker. I don’t know.

Eve Klein. Was it your choice?

John Schenker. Yes. I think I’m at fault there.

Eve Klein. It wasn’t an ostracizing situation.

John Schenker. None whatsoever.

Eve Klein. Did things change at the end of the war?

John Schenker. Yes, we were in boom times after the war. The men came home – those that did. The government provided housing where it wasn’t available. Loans were dirt cheap at very low interest rates.

Eve Klein. Did that affect you? Did your mother take advantage of that? She remained living behind the shop.

John Schenker. Yes, until 1948 when she got seriously ill and we sold the shop. For two or three weeks, we continued living behind the shop, but that was not a solution, it was by kindness of the bloke who bought the shop, and then we moved to Neutral Bay.

Eve Klein. The shop was still a milk bar, until when?

John Schenker. It became The Continental Deli after a while.

Eve Klein. That was until the beginning of the 1980s, I think.

John Schenker. They made no use of the living premises, and they re-modeled it, and it was quite a nice shop.

John Schenker. You finished your time at North Sydney Tech and…

John Schenker. ….went straight into an apprenticeship in Clyde, Granville, with Commonwealth Engineering. I was still living in Mosman and I traveled every morning. I got up at five o’clock, because an apprentice starts at 7.30 and I had to catch a tram from Mosman to North Sydney Station, run down the stairs so I could catch the right train, and get off the train at Granville. I went to Sydney Technical College to do a Diploma in Engineering and this was three or four nights a week, where I caught the train from Clyde to Central Railway, swallowed some fish and chips very quickly. Went into classes and after classes caught the tram, or train home.

Eve Klein. And would arrive home at what time?

John Schenker. 10 o’clock at night. And I also went on Saturday morning or afternoon – I had a choice, to do surveying through the streets of Ultimo. That was only for one year, but by God that took it out of me. Despite those times, I had the most marvelous social life.

Eve Klein. How did you fit that in?

John Schenker. In the remaining hours.

Eve Klein. Mainly weekends?

John Schenker. Yes. I never did as much work as my studies required. I was not the studying type. I got through my exams, but I was not a great student.

Eve Klein. Were you socializing in Mosman at all then?

John Schenker. Very little.

Eve Klein. Would you have any awareness of the facilities that were available if you wanted to?

John Schenker. I made use of Mosman Library. I think Mosman Library in those days was at Spit Junction where ‘Boronia’ is. I borrowed from there.

Eve Klein. Dances, or anything like that?

John Schenker. Yes, I learnt dancing at Miss Phyllis – I think her name was Atkins, School of Dancing at Cremorne Junction opposite the Cremorne Orpheum. They didn’t have that hotel complex there in those days. I went to those dancing classes after school. You had to sit along the wall like a wallflower, and one of the dancing instructors would pick you up and you went dancing.

Eve Klein. So you learnt the basic steps? You didn’t otherwise, socialize in the area.

John Schenker. By my choice.

Eve Klein. Where were you mainly around in 1948/50?

John Schenker. With my friends in Bellevue Hill and Bondi.

Eve Klein. Those friends you mentioned before that were living in Mosman, were they still living here then?

John Schenker. Yes. When my father was sick in 1943, terribly, terribly sick. He had a brain tumour and he was operated on. My mother was constantly away from the shop, and that shop was run by me, and friends.. People from across the road, people next door – ‘Can I help John to look after the shop?’. They all helped. We had people who cooked meals for me. People who took me in after school, or after College, so that I could study in peace and quiet, and then sent me home a complete meal so that mum wouldn’t have to cook. I can only speak in the fondest terms of the people of Mosman.

Eve Klein. You said you used to go from Mosman Primary and I assume from Mosman Intermediate back for lunch.

John Schenker. I walked up Military Road, yes, and had lunch at home.

Eve Klein. Do you think many of the students did that? Most had their lunch at school. Why did you do that?

John Schenker. Because it was convenient for my mother to supply lunch, rather than cut a lunch. I used to get lifts back to school with the baker who came on his horse and cart, or by the milkman. Next to Mosman Post Office there was an old lady who ran a cake shop who for 2d sold the most wonderful meat pies. Right next door to Mosman Post Office, facing the Post Office, to the left hand side. I don’t know what it is now. After her, there was an electrical contractor there by the name of….

Eve Klein. ….Smarts?

John Schenker. No, before Smarts – McGregor – McCraig

Eve Klein. Those pies, do you really think they were very good, or did they just taste right for you?

John Schenker. They were just right for me. They were juicy and the pastry was good, and 2d!

Eve Klein. The children that went to Mosman Primary were they comparatively well off, or did some of them attend without shoes?

John Schenker. No, not at all. They were all middle-class families. There were some wealthy families that we knew in Mosman, for instance the Goldbergs on the corner of Cross Street and Bradleys Head Road. They had the agency in Australia for Packard shoes, a very well known make of shoes at the time, and several other shoes. They had that magnificent house, which is still there today, with the big verandahs going round it. A beautiful place, we knew them.

Eve Klein. So there was no deprivation at all?

John Schenker. No.

Eve Klein. Even with fathers away. Was there any sort of community effort to help people? At school were there any supplies of milk, or anything like that.

John Schenker. Yes, we got our warm milk every day, and you had to drink it?

Eve Klein. Who organised that?

John Schenker. The state government.

Eve Klein. Who supplied it to you?

John Schenker. Dairy Farmers, or Fresh Food. They were the only two suppliers of dairy products in NSW at the time. The Fresh Food depot was at Cowles Road. they brought crates of quarter pint bottles of milk to the school grounds and just left them there, even in the blazing heat. There was no refrigeration in the school, and of course, half the kids didn’t bother drinking this lukewarm liquid. It was undrinkable.

Eve Klein. If there had been any problem for children whose fathers were away, were you aware of any assistance?

John Schenker. Such as the Department of Social Services.

Eve Klein. Or just Mosman based? It wasn’t obvious. How do the schools you went to compare now with public schooling?

John Schenker. Public Schools were very limited compared to what kids learn in schools now, both in Primary and in High Schools. I watch what my grandchildren do in school very closely, and it’s just absolutely amazing. They do now in 3rd and 4th class what I did in 5th class. The High Schools today are far more comprehensive. They offer a far wider range of subjects than I was ever offered.

Eve Klein. You said you learnt French. Was that an elective?

John Schenker. Yes. I also did German because I knew that was a dead winner for the Intermediate Certificate. I was very, very good at Latin. In retrospect I should have gone to North Sydney High School and done Latin there, completed my two years at North Sydney High, and gone into law or medicine, or whatever. There was no restriction. There was no University of NSW in those days. Everyone went on to Sydney, or University of Technology as New South Wales was first called.

Eve Klein. You chose three languages – what did you sacrifice?

John Schenker. I did science. I could have divided chemistry and physics. Dropped one and taken either of the other two.

Eve Klein. So it was quite all right to do three languages without sacrificing your education.

John Schenker. I hated chemistry and I dropped it altogether at North Sydney Tech, which was not a very smart thing to do, because I had to do it for my first year diploma course at Sydney Technical College.

Eve Klein. You were obviously very boy-based with schooling; do you have any recollection of girls in the area?

John Schenker. Yes, again amongst our own refugee families. I fell in love with one girl one day and another girl the next, and another one the following day.

Eve Klein. What was the girls’ school equivalent to Tech? There was no such thing. But where would they have gone after the Intermediate?

John Schenker. To Cremorne.

Eve Klein. To Cremorne Girls’ High?

John Schenker. No, they would have gone there already for their first year of High School, because there was no girls’ school, and Mosman Boys’ High was all boys.

Eve Klein. So they would have gone there straight after Primary School. That would have been the equivalent.

John Schenker. I think that’s SCEGGS now, isn’t it?

Eve Klein. That’s right. Were you aware of any delinquency?

John Schenker. We never saw a policeman there, like some of the schools do now. There was no such thing as drugs.

Eve Klein. What would be the most dreadful crime?

John Schenker. The most dreadful crime that I witnessed and I was personally involved in this. I had a friend in one of my classes – I think this was in 6th class who insisted on showering me with dinky toys. I don’t know why but I got quite a collection of those, until one day Teasdale, the headmaster, called me into his office and he said: ‘So and so – did he give you that?’ ‘Yes’. ‘Well you’d better give them all back because he stole them all from the newsagency across the road’. Next to Sciacchitano’s roughly where the hardware shop is, there used to be a newsagency and this kid swiped these model cars and gave them to friends, and made himself very popular. I have no idea what the punishment was for that.

Eve Klein. Any smoking?

John Schenker. Not that I know of. It was a very tame environment. I put that down to the fact that it was Mosman and North Sydney. My friend who was put under my wing at Mosman Intermediate – he went on to Cleveland Street, when they moved to Bellevue Hill he continued his High School there. And he told me many a story of how different it was.

Eve Klein. Anything else you remember?

John Schenker. I remember going to Mosman baths for our sports afternoons. We walked every Wednesday afternoon, down Raglan Street, to the baths and I always left half an hour before the others did. I quickly swallowed my lunch and I virtually ran down to the baths because my mother had bought underwear for me.

Eve Klein. The baths were in the same position at Balmoral Beach that they are now?

John Schenker. Yes, but there were dressing sheds there, not this reasonably modern change room that is there at the moment.

Eve Klein. What was the reason you went earlier?

John Schenker. Because my mother had brought from overseas enough under wear for me to last me for the next 10 years. I must tell you that in Australia men did not wear under pants in those days. They wore singlets; that’s how good old Chesty Bond was born. They wore singlets, but no under pants. That’s a practice that only came in later. So here was I in my combination underwear – combination pants and singlet in one, and I went there 20 minutes earlier so I could get into an unoccupied cubicle and change into my swimming costume without the boys seeing me.

Eve Klein. What was the swimming instruction like?

John Schenker. That was outside school, it had nothing to do with school.

Eve Klein. You didn’t go swimming with the school at all?

John Schenker. Yes. But I was taught swimming at Balmoral baths hanging from a belt around my waist and suspended from a crane. I was hanging in the water and I practiced my swimming movements down in the water, but I couldn’t sink. They made sure of that, and I thought it was damn good. It was excellent.

Eve Klein. You went often to Balmoral Beach?

John Schenker. Not often. I went mainly to Bondi Beach where my friends were, but occasionally I went to Balmoral. I had a morbid fear of netted beaches, or pools, because Council knows they’re shark proof, I know they’re shark proof, but does the shark know. I was dead scared. I was there the year when a little boy was taken by a shark at Balmoral on the un-netted side of the beach. On the right-hand side of the little projecting island that goes out, and that only increased my fears.

Eve Klein. Did you use transport other than trams?

John Schenker. I used the ferry very often when I went to town. When my mother went to town we caught the tram, which passed our door to Mosman wharf, or we caught the bus to Musgrave Street.

Eve Klein. You took the ferry to Circular Quay, and you usually went to town to do what?

John Schenker. Shopping.

Eve Klein. Did you go to the city for entertainment?

John Schenker. Yes, if there was a good picture on there, I went to town with my friends. I remember the day that peace on the Pacific was declared, on the 15th August. I was in a maths lesson at North Sydney Tech when we were all asked to come to assembly. Our teacher, good old Mike Hunt – that’s his real name – he refused to let us go until the end of the lesson, so we went up to assembly and there we were told the rest of the day was free, peace has come, etc, etc. There was an announcement by the Prime Minister at the time. I caught the tram into the city and bought some tickets at the State Theatre for my birthday party to which I’d invited a group of friends. All I can tell you is that I nearly got killed in the crush going into town and coming home again. I was almost killed at the Wynyard platform there was such a surge of people to get on to those trams.

Eve Klein. Can you estimate the numbers in a class that you had at Mosman High?

John Schenker. I’d only be guessing – about 30 or so. I have never been struck by the high or low number in a class.

Eve Klein. You say they were gentrified. Were they more or less a similar type of boy at the school? Were they of British background mainly?

John Schenker. Almost universal. Well the parents, not the boys, they were all Australian born, except my friend Eric Sciacchitano, who was obviously born in Italy.

Eve Klein. Was there any awareness of what religion they were?

John Schenker. Yes, you saw how they divided up on Scripture days. There was the Church of England, and the Presbyterian, and the Methodists, and the Catholics. They all had Church members coming in to teach. I don’t recall if I had Jewish Scripture lessons at school. Maybe there were too few of us, I don’t think so. I went into a non-Scripture class.

Eve Klein. What did you feel about the Australians that you met in those days – what was your impression of them?

John Schenker. Very, very good. I am very sorry that I didn’t forge closer friendships with any of them during my school days. I didn’t do that at work either.

Eve Klein. There were no exceptions to that pattern, apart from the Italian boy you mentioned.

John Schenker. One of our sporting heroes John Treloar who was a runner, he was at Mosman and he went to North Sydney Boys’ High. We parted company there. I remember some names, Lachlan Sims, Gordon Horford, John Cheedle – he later on played representative cricket. Another thing, very often my father indulged me in everything I wanted, he played cricket with me in the back lane with a fruit box and a bat and a ball, and very often we went across through the Lane to the Mosman Oval and watched the inter-suburban cricket matches. We saw some prominent names there. There was O’Reilly, and Richard Benaud. They were well known names who later played representative cricket. I can’t recall, but I may even have seen Don Bradman playing there, because that was his era.

Eve Klein. Did you play any other sport?

John Schenker. I played cricket and tennis. I played second grade cricket, as a matter of fact.

Eve Klein. Who did you play tennis with?

John Schenker. With the school. Not for the school. Cricket I played for the school, but not tennis.

Eve Klein. Was sport an important thing in the school? Was it taught during school hours?

John Schenker. We had our sporting afternoon on Wednesdays. You had to go to a sport, either tennis or cricket, or swimming in summer and football in winter. Yes, you could choose. It was essential; you couldn’t get out of it.

Eve Klein. OK. It sounds as though your life has been quite affected by Mosman because of your early times.

John Schenker. I had a wonderful time in Mosman and the citizens of Mosman really contributed to that. I could have had a hell of a time, as I know fellow refugees and fellow co-religionists had in other parts of Sydney.

Eve Klein. What do you think of Mosman now?

John Schenker. I think it’s a beautiful place. The population has aged tremendously. You can see that by walking the streets. Prices of housing in Mosman has driven the younger generation away. It is almost impossible to achieve, unless you inherit a house there. To buy and build requires a lot of money.

Eve Klein. Thank you very much.